1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ELOUISE PEPION COBELL, . Docket Number: CA 96-1285 et al, . . Plaintiffs, . . v. . Washington, D.C. . October 30, 2001 SECRETARY OF INTERIOR, . 10:00 a.m. et al, . . Defendants. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . TRANSCRIPT OF STATUS CALL BEFORE THE HONORABLE ROYCE C. LAMBERTH UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE APPEARANCES: For the Plaintiff: DENNIS GINGOLD, ESQUIRE (202) 661-6380 MARK BROWN, ESQUIRE (202) 661-6382 KEITH HARPER, ESQUIRE Native American Rights Fund 1712 N. Street, N.W. Washington, D. C. 20036 (202) 822-0068 ELLIOTT LEVITAS, ESQUIRE For the Defendant: MARK E. NAGLE, ESQUIRE Chief, Civil Division SCOTT HARRIS, ESQUIRE CRAIG LAWRENCE, ESQUIRE United States Attorney's Office 555 4th Street, N.W. Washington, D. C. 20001 (202) 514-7151 SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 2 J. CHRISTOPHER KOHN, ESQUIRE JOHN T. STEMPLEWICZ, ESQUIRE U.S. Department of Justice Box 875 Ben Franklin Station Washington, D. C. 20044 (202) 514-7450 BRIAN FERRELL, ESQUIRE (202) 691-3715 WILLIAM MYERS, ESQUIRE Department of the Interior MEGAN HILLS, ESQUIRE Department of Treasury Court Reporter: SUSAN PAGE TYNER, CVR-CM Official Court Reporter Room 6824, U.S. Courthouse Washington, D.C. 20001 (202) 371-2230 Proceedings reported by stenomask, transcript produced from dictation. SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G 2 THE COURTROOM CLERK: This Honorable Court is now 3 in session. Please be seated and come to order. 4 Good morning, Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Good morning. 6 THE COURTROOM CLERK: This is Civil Case 96-1285, 7 Elouise Pepion Cobell, et al, versus Secretary of Interior, 8 et al. 9 Would counsel please come to the podium for the 10 record and give your names and the parties you represent 11 beginning with the plaintiffs. 12 MR. GINGOLD: Good morning, Your Honor. Dennis 13 Gingold for the plaintiffs. 14 MR. BROWN: Mark Brown for the plaintiffs. 15 MR. HARPER: Keith Harper for the plaintiffs. 16 MR. LEVITAS: Elliott Levitas for the plaintiffs. 17 MR. NAGLE: Good morning, Your Honor. Mark Nagle, 18 Assistant United States Attorney. 19 Your Honor, the United States Attorney's Office is 20 appearing in this matter on behalf of defendants and others 21 named in the plaintiffs' motions for order to show cause 22 filed in August of 2000, and in April, May, August and 23 October of 2001 insofar as any sanctions sought in those 24 motions would run against those named in their official 25 capacities. SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4 1 MR. HARRIS: Good morning, Your Honor. Scott 2 Harris from the United States Attorney's Office on behalf of 3 the same clients as Mr. Nagle articulated. 4 MR. LAWRENCE: Good morning, Your Honor. Craig 5 Lawrence, also from the U.S. Attorney's Office on behalf of 6 those same defendants. 7 MR. KOHN: Good morning, Your Honor. My name is 8 Chris Kohn. I am with the Civil Division of the Department 9 of Justice. We will be representing the defendants with 10 respect to the other aspects of this case. We have referred 11 to them as the merits aspect of the case. 12 Thank you, Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: So the Civil Division for the 14 Department of Justice is now going to take over the defense 15 of the primary action? 16 MR. KOHN: That is correct, Your Honor. 17 MR. STEMPLEWICZ: Good morning, Your Honor. John 18 Stemplewicz from the Civil Division of the Department of 19 Justice for the defendants. 20 THE COURT: My condolences. 21 MR. FERRELL: Good morning, Your Honor. Brian 22 Ferrell representing the Secretary of the Treasury. 23 MR. MYERS: Your Honor, I am Bill Myers, Solicitor, 24 Department of the Interior. 25 MS. HILLS: Good morning, Your Honor. I am Megan SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5 1 Hills. I am the Associate Deputy Counsel on behalf of the 2 Department of Treasury. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Are there counsel for any 4 individually named non-parties to this case who are here? 5 MR. ZUCKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honor. It is a 6 pleasure to be here. My name is Roger Zuckerman, and along 7 with my partner, Leslie Kiernan, we represent Robert Lamb, 8 who is one of the individuals named in the plaintiffs' motion 9 for order to show cause. 10 Thank you. 11 MS. JACKSON: Good morning, Your Honor. Amy 12 Jackson on behalf of Edith Blackwell. 13 MS. KEMLER: Good morning, Your Honor. Lisa Kemler 14 on behalf of Deborah Maddock, and I have a notice of 15 appearance to pass up. 16 THE COURT: Lisa Kemler? 17 MS. KEMLER: Kemler, K-e-m-l-e-r. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. LUSKIN: Good morning, Your Honor. Robert 20 Luskin for Bruce Babbitt, John Leshy and Edward Cohen. We 21 have only just been retained Your Honor and we will file a 22 notice of appearance today. 23 THE COURT: Okay. I am sorry, Babbitt, Cohen and 24 who? 25 MR. LUSKIN: Leshy. And I represent Secretary SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 6 1 Babbitt, obviously, solely for the purpose of these 2 collateral matters. 3 THE COURT: Right. 4 MS. ROGERS: Good morning, Your Honor. Marti 5 Rogers. I represent Mr. Elliott, Timothy S. Elliott from the 6 Department of the Interior, and I entered an appearance in 7 September. 8 THE COURT: Right. 9 MR. BRAUMWICH: Good morning, Your Honor. My name 10 is Michael Braumwich. I represent Sharon Blackwell. We have 11 just been retained, and we will be entering a notice of 12 appearance shortly. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MS. VOLKER: Good morning, Your Honor. My name is 15 Kathleen Volker. I represent James Douglas, and I am 16 prepared to enter my appearance this morning. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. BRIGGS: Good morning, Your Honor. My name is 19 Bill Briggs. I will be entering my appearance on behalf of 20 Phil Brooks from the Department of Justice. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. LONDON: Good morning, Your Honor. I am Mark 23 London with my partner, Christopher Meed. We represent 24 Kenneth Rossman. 25 MR. GOODSTEIN: Good morning, Your Honor. Michael SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 7 1 Goodstein on behalf of Tom Clark. 2 MS. ZIMMITTI: Good morning, Your Honor. Laura 3 Zimmitti on behalf of Phil Brooks. 4 THE COURT: I didn't get your last name. 5 MS. ZIMMITTI: Zimmitti, Z-i-m-m-i-t-t-i. 6 THE COURT: For Phil Brooks as well? 7 MS. ZIMMITTI: Yes, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MS. VAN GELDER: May it please the court, Barbara 10 Van Gelder on behalf of James Eicher, DOJ. 11 THE COURT: For James who? 12 MS. VAN GELDER: Eicher, E-i-c-h-e-r. 13 THE COURT: Eicher, okay. 14 MR. DUNCAN: Good morning, Judge Lamberth. Russell 15 Duncan representing David Shulton from the Department of 16 Justice. 17 MS. FLEMING: Good morning, Your Honor. I am 18 Elizabeth Fleming. I am representing Michael Rosetti of the 19 Department of the Interior, and I do want to notify the court 20 that I don't have a formal representation agreement with Mr. 21 Rosetti at this moment. I expect to have one by the close of 22 the day. 23 THE COURT: And your name was Glenning? 24 MS. FLEMING: Elizabeth Fleming. 25 THE COURT: Fleming, I am sorry. SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 8 1 MS. FLEMING: Yes, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: F-l-e-m-i-n-g. 3 MS. FLEMING: Yes, Your Honor. 4 MR. NATHANS: Good morning, Your Honor. Larry 5 Nathans representing David Shewey from the Department of 6 Justice. 7 MR. BOSS: Good morning, Your Honor. Barry Boss. 8 I have also not formally been retained at this point, but I 9 expect to be so very shortly. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. BYERS: Good morning, Your Honor. Stephen 12 Byers, Crowell & Moring. We represent Dominique Nessi. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Any other counsel present for 14 any of the individual non-parties? 15 (No response.) 16 THE COURT: Does counsel for the government know 17 the status of representation of any of the others in terms of 18 -- are others still seeking counsel, or are others present, 19 or what do we know about that? 20 MR. NAGLE: Your Honor, our information is that 21 there are other requests that are at various stages of being 22 formulated or presented. We don't have any more concrete 23 information for the court at this time. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Is there any other non-party 25 individual who wants to be heard at this hearing? SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 9 1 (No response.) 2 THE COURT: All right. The main reason I set the 3 hearing was first to deal with any requests to extend time, 4 since I am not inclined to grant any, and to address that 5 matter, and also to address where we are with representation 6 of various named parties. 7 So let me have the plaintiffs proceed first. You 8 can go ahead. 9 MR. GINGOLD: Your Honor, you may not recall who I 10 am, but I am Dennis Gingold, and I am lead counsel for the 11 plaintiff. 12 We have been before you now for five and a half 13 years. For a year and a half now, we have motions for orders 14 to show cause outstanding. There have been recommendations 15 by the special master for contempt. 16 First with regard to Mona Enfeld with regard to the 17 retaliation, in violation of an anti-retaliation order that 18 was drafted by the government and moved by the government. 19 We have violations of an anti-reprisal order that 20 was entered by the special mater in order to address the 21 palpable fare that he found held by Department of the 22 Interior employees regarding their ability to speak 23 freely with this court and the judicial officers of this 24 court. 25 Recently, as recently as this Sunday, the special SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 10 1 master filed a supplement to his recommendation on contempt 2 with regard to Secretary Norton, and with regard to others, 3 and recommended criminal contempt proceedings be brought, and 4 further confirmed the potential culpability of the Justice 5 Department lawyers and other lawyers in this case. 6 During the course of this five and a half years, 7 Your Honor, we have had three Secretaries held in contempt, 8 and and Assistant Secretary held in contempt. Nothing has 9 changed. 10 From the day this case was filed you have been 11 lied to, you have been misled, and our clients have been 12 abused. During the course of this period of time, with a 13 class of approximately 500,000 trust beneficiaries, many 14 people have died, and they are never going to see their trust 15 benefits. 16 The failure of this government to do anything that 17 it has promised is historical with regard to the trust 18 beneficiaries, Your Honor. In our opinion it is 19 unprecedented with regard to the court. 20 We have never seen any situation where so much has 21 been misstated, where this court has been so misled, where 22 this court, in fact, has been treated like trust 23 beneficiaries who are Indians. 24 We believe that this has to stop. We believe that 25 the integrity of this litigation has been compromised. We SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 11 1 believe that it can be rehabilitated, and we believe that it 2 is time to move forward. 3 Three years ago, Your Honor, we were in this 4 courtroom, on November 23rd and November 24th, 1998, to 5 discuss a number of issues including the setting of a trial 6 date. 7 During the course of that two days, things 8 changed, and contempt became more significant when it 9 became evident that representations that had been made to you 10 were false with regard to production of documents under 11 paragraph 19 of the first order of production of November 12 27th, 1996. 13 Since that time there has been -- and by the way, 14 since that time, November 23rd, 1998, based on the evidence 15 that was presented and the findings of Special Master 16 Ballerin, documents began to be destructed -- destroyed at 17 the Department of the Treasury. 18 We had a contempt trial in January of 1999. In the 19 pretrial conference it was revealed that the then special 20 trustee was forced to resign because he was interfered by the 21 Secretary, and others, in his job. Joe Christi was stripped 22 of his responsibilities. John Miller was stripped of his 23 responsibilities. 24 During that time, documents were being destroyed at 25 the Department of the Treasury. After Your Honor had a SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 12 1 trial, and the defendants were held in contempt, and the 2 lawyers moved to remove their names from the order to show 3 cause, documents continued to be destroyed. 4 Some time in May the Justice Department was 5 informed that, by the way, we destroyed documents from the 6 time of the November 23rd, 1998 hearing through the contempt 7 trial of Secretary Reuben. 8 A special master was appointed through this court's 9 orders in February of 1999. Since that time the special 10 master has been obstructed. 11 As a special trustee, Mr. Homan was obstructed, but 12 this time more vigorously, through frivolous motions that 13 were filed, through failure to comply with directives of the 14 special master, through motions to disqualify the special 15 master. 16 Now it is obviously lied because of the almost 17 abject failure to do the job that they claimed they were 18 doing, and to do what they represented to this court that 19 they would absolutely do. 20 You may recall during the trial in the summer of 21 1999, Your Honor, that there was a discussion on July 14th of 22 1999 where Mr. Holt was cross examining Mr. Lamb, and there 23 was a plaintiffs' exhibit that was being discussed which had 24 paraphrased, Ben Franklin, where it said, we must hang 25 together or we will hang separately. SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 13 1 This court itself participated in the examination 2 of Mr. Lamb and asked him what it meant, and at one point 3 this court pointed out that it was maybe a prediction on the 4 part of Mr. Lamb or Mr. Cohen, whoever was the author of that 5 statement, and Mr. Lamb disagreed. 6 He claimed that it wasn't a prediction. He was 7 pointing out that at that point in time if they don't hang 8 together, and they didn't complete trust reform, there would 9 be shame on the Department of the Interior as this court 10 might recall. 11 Your Honor, there is shame on the Department of the 12 Interior. There is shame on the Department of Justice, and 13 there is shame on the Department of the Treasury. 14 Paragraph nineteen documents have not been 15 produced. As a matter of fact, documents continue to be 16 destroyed. Documents continue to be lost. Projects that are 17 represented to be completed were either no projects at all, 18 which were just more of the fraud perpetrated on this court, 19 or there were projects that were absurd projects. One 20 project could be, we will convene a meeting to discuss the 21 subject. Meeting ended, project completed. 22 Deployment of the trust has been redefined to 23 satisfy the needs and requirements of avoiding this court's 24 oversight. Deployment is not implementing trust reform. 25 Deployment isn't a system like TAAMS working. SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 14 1 Deployment is now stating that the system is a 2 system of record, that the system of record is now the system 3 that will be relied upon. But Your Honor, it isn't the 4 system of record. 5 The data hasn't been cleaned up. The data is 6 insecure. Things are worse today than it was on June 10th, 7 1996. But we have learned in the course of this five and a 8 half years, Your Honor, is there is nothing that defendants 9 have said that is true. 10 Whether they have to perpetrate this fraud on this 11 court, or they perpetrate it on the Court of Appeals, as Mr. 12 Nessi pointed out in his February 23rd, 2001 memorandum, 13 discussing the implosion of trust reform, what has been going 14 on in this court is posturing before this court. 15 We don't think that a trustee has the right to 16 posture before this court. We don't think that a trustee has 17 the right to abuse trust beneficiaries, to lose their assets, 18 to put their assets at risk, to destroy their documents, and 19 claim the destruction of documents is necessary for the 20 security of the documents, Your Honor. 21 We have seen in this case documents altered, 22 altered at the instruction of attorneys. We have seen in 23 this case actions taken by government officials, not in 24 conformity with what this court required with regard to 25 truthful representations in quarterly reports and SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 15 1 otherwise, but to conceal from this court the abject failure 2 to do what this court ordered them to do, and they promised 3 to do. 4 We have seen orders regularly violated, orders that 5 were not only consented to by the defendants, but were 6 drafted by the defendants' counsel in opposition by 7 plaintiffs because they weren't strong enough. They still 8 violate those orders, Your Honor. 9 We have now gone through several sets of lawyers in 10 this case. Each time the situation becomes worse. I can 11 recall -- 12 THE COURT: And each set of lawyers comes in and 13 moves to enlarge time. 14 MR. GINGOLD: Enlarge time, delay, delay, delay, 15 delay. Never an end in sight. 16 The reason is, Your Honor, nobody has been held 17 personally accountable. It is not their money. They get 18 their pay checks. It is not their pension that is being 19 lost. 20 During the course of the investigation of the 21 problems associated with part of the system, the electronic 22 system, the question was asked by the special master of the 23 government's experts: "Would you put your pension money in 24 this system?" And the answer was, "No." 25 Why is it good enough for the trust beneficiaries, SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 16 1 Your Honor, and it is not good enough for the lawyers in this 2 case? Why is it good enough for the trust beneficiaries and 3 not good enough for the Secretary of the Interior? There is 4 something wrong here. 5 This court was affirmed unanimously, to the 6 surprise of the government, and not only affirmed, but it was 7 restated, the malfeasance practice by the defendants in this 8 case. 9 That February 23rd decision hasn't affected 10 anything. The malfeasance continues. More bull is presented 11 to this court. 12 Our clients cannot afford more delays. Your Honor 13 at one point during a discussion with counsel in open court 14 pointed out that he was not going to wait until the next 15 administration to try phase two. 16 Your Honor, in many respects they have run. They 17 have delayed this through an administration. They are going 18 to try to delay it through another administration. Nobody is 19 held accountable. Nobody wants to be held accountable, and 20 nobody has the courage to stand up and say, stop, it is 21 enough. 22 Mr. Kiefer has pointed that out in four brilliant 23 reports that he has filed. We have found that particular 24 action taken in the last six months, combined with what the 25 special master has done, to be the most significant period of SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 17 1 time in this case. 2 Everything that the plaintiff has been saying for 3 five and a half years has been confirmed by Mr. Kiefer and 4 Mr. Ballerin. On one hand it is nice to be confirmed. On 5 the other hand, Your Honor, this is a pathetic situation we 6 are in today. 7 Ms. Cobell has travelled 2,500 miles to get here 8 for this hearing, under very difficult circumstances, and 9 none of the defendants could even take their limousine up 10 Pennsylvania Avenue, driven for them, for five minutes, to 11 take this case seriously. 12 This is the same problem that this court pointed 13 out during the contempt trial. They don't listen to you, 14 Your Honor, and they don't listen to the plaintiffs. 15 There is not doubt that this is going to get 16 messier, because there is no doubt that the government is 17 acting in accordance with standard procedures. You have 18 John Marshall award winners here, Your Honor, who 19 participated in this. The highest award given by the 20 Department of Justice. 21 We hope that we are not going to have to see a 22 repeat of this, but we expect we are going to. We noticed 23 yesterday, as a matter of fact, the Environment of Natural 24 Resources division is actually advertising in Legal Times for 25 an experienced class action litigator to handle this case. SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 18 1 How many more lawyers are we going to see? 2 Now that we have this -- and by the way, Your 3 Honor, we don't have 39 people who are subject to potential 4 contempt here. We probably have upwards of fifty, because 5 in the motions that have been outstanding since August, 6 there are individuals who were not included in the last 7 motion. 8 Treasury issues haven't even been addressed from 9 the document destruction that went on that was not fairly 10 described by Mr. Tyler in the Tyler report, and that was 11 exposed by the special master in his report -- in his two 12 reports with regard to Treasury. 13 What action has been taken against the people 14 responsible for destruction, Your Honor? Nothing. What 15 action has been taken with regard to the lawyers who have 16 covered up the destruction, Your Honor? Nothing. 17 We are here, and we will be here another five and a 18 half years from now unless we move this case forward, and we 19 believe that there are complicated issues with regard to 20 contempt. 21 We believe that there are issues that may be 22 necessary for certain individuals in a personal capacity to 23 have a week or two, perhaps. We don't believe that the 24 government, as a defendant in this case, and we don't believe 25 individuals in their official capacity need any more time. SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 19 1 They are the ones who have done this. They know what they 2 have done, Your Honor. 3 Our papers have been filed in this court for so 4 long that they are starting to grow mold. We have had a 5 motion to reopen and sanctions pending with regard to what we 6 claimed on November 30th of 2000 was a fraud perpetrated on 7 this court. It has been proven that that is the case. 8 We need to move forward. It is critical that we 9 move forward. It is critical that we are able to move 10 forward with regard to the receiver and with regard to the 11 phase two issues immediately. 12 We believe that we can go to trial still with 13 regard to January 8th on the phase two issues, Your Honor. 14 We believe that the receiver can proceed at the same point in 15 time. 16 We are not as many lawyers as our opposition. You 17 see we are a handful. Your Honor, we will be prepared to 18 move forward. They can bring in another thirty, or forty, or 19 fifty lawyers. It doesn't make any difference. We will work 20 24 hours a day if we have to to move forward. Our clients 21 are entitled to it, and we are asking you to do it, Your 22 Honor. 23 We know that this court has a short time frame 24 because of other responsibilities, so we are attempting to 25 prioritized what we need to do. SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 20 1 There are contempt issues that have been fully 2 briefed. The Mona Enfeld contempt issue has been fully 3 briefed. There is no reason for either Civil or the United 4 States Attorney's Office to have much input into that. It 5 has been done. 6 Mr. Kiefer's reports, but for reports four and 7 five, and I think that the comments are due for report four 8 today, five which is what we characterize as a supplement I 9 think is due on Thursday -- those are the only comment 10 periods that still remaining outstanding with regard to Mr. 11 Kiefer's reports. 12 The other three have been -- the time period has 13 expired. And in this circuit, you have no right to reserve 14 comments when there isn't an order. This is akin to the 15 Magistrate situation where whether or not there is a 16 different review standard from that of the special master, 17 there is not a different standard with regard to the time 18 period. 19 They did not seek leave of this court, they did not 20 file their comments, so neither Civil nor the United States 21 Attorney's Office has any need for further time in that 22 regard, either. 23 Now we believe that discrete contempt can move 24 forward. We believe that the contempt that is a part of the 25 motion that we filed with regard to the Kiefer one report, SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 21 1 which deals with the accounting, the Federal Register 2 process, the -- what we consider to be, and we believe what 3 Mr. Kiefer has confirmed to be something that was a bogus 4 process that did nothing but harm our clients. We believe 5 that they can move forward simultaneously, Your Honor, as 6 well. 7 We think that there is plenty of room to get a 8 lot of work done, and a very short period of time. 9 Virtually every single issue in this case has been briefed to 10 death. 11 The fact that there are new lawyers coming in in my 12 opinion, Your Honor, is irrelevant. It is the same team of 13 lawyers. It is the same Justice Department. It is the same 14 client. It is self-inflicted, and this court has pointed out 15 many times, when the harm is self-inflicted, there is no 16 relief that anyone is entitled to. 17 Lastly, Your Honor, what has come across in the 18 five years of this litigation is clear that the government -- 19 the executive branch does not believe it is a real trustee; 20 does not believe that the best interests of the trust 21 beneficiaries are important. 22 Self-interest, power in control over programs, 23 budget issues, concealment -- that is what has been going on 24 in this case. 25 Why is the government fighting still, Your Honor? SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 22 1 After the Circuit's decision, and your decision, why is the 2 government insisting that they really don't have a trust 3 responsibility? 4 Why have they asked Congress for 614 million 5 dollars in funds to reform a trust if they haven't reformed 6 the trust? Why do they spend tens of millions of dollars 7 defending the position that they don't have to do this, that 8 this court can't tell them what to do, that nobody can tell 9 them what to do? It is because they don't believe that this 10 is a trust, Your Honor. 11 All of this is relevant to what we come down to 12 today. Unless this court does something sooner than later, 13 more assets are going to be lost; more documents are going to 14 be destroyed; more lies are going to be present to this 15 court; more orders are going to be violated; and more of our 16 clients are going to die. 17 It is time, Your Honor. Let's go forward. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Nagle. 19 MR. NAGLE: Your Honor, the United States 20 Attorney's Office, those of us here this morning from the 21 United States Attorney's Office have, in a period of time 22 measured in days, come to be involved in this matter for the 23 purposes I articulated at the outset of this hearing this 24 morning. 25 In the course of our familiarizing ourselves with SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 23 1 the history of this case -- 2 THE COURT: And why was that? Nobody took all of 3 these contempt motions seriously until a few days ago? 4 MR. NAGLE: Your Honor, these contempt motions 5 cannot be taken in any way other than with the utmost 6 gravity, and it is the recognition of those of us now charged 7 with responding to the most recently filed motions for orders 8 to show cause by the plaintiffs, it is our recognition that 9 this court has and will continue to hold government officials 10 and their attorneys accountable that gives rise to our 11 request for additional time -- 12 THE COURT: Is that some sudden revelation that I 13 do that? 14 MR. NAGLE: No, Your Honor. No, it isn't. 15 THE COURT: Haven't I done that always, in all of 16 my cases? 17 MR. NAGLE: Yes you have, Your Honor, and we have 18 never doubted it. We find ourselves, however, looking at a 19 case that, as this court well knows, and as the plaintiffs' 20 counsel just articulated for the court, has covered a long 21 course of events for a period of five years, or perhaps even 22 a little more than five years. 23 And I heard in plaintiffs' counsel's remarks just 24 now a theme that is echoed in their papers, and a theme that 25 emerges from this court's published opinions and unpublished SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 24 1 interlocutory orders. 2 As we review it, we see this theme time and again, 3 a concern about accountability, a concern about accuracy, a 4 concern about completeness of statements made in this court 5 and actions taken outside this court, and the manner in which 6 those actions are later described to Your Honor and the 7 plaintiffs and their representatives. 8 We are undertaking to respond to their most 9 recently filed motions for order to show cause with a deep 10 recognition and an absolutely unwavering respect for this 11 court's intention to insure that those persons in government, 12 now and previously, are accountable for what they say and 13 what they do. 14 We recognize that we, as we undertake this 15 representation, Your Honor, are no less in that 16 position, and that is what gives rise to our request for more 17 time. 18 It does no one any good for responses to be 19 presented to this court that are based on anything less than 20 a thorough inquiry, an exhausting review of relevant 21 documents, a questioning process that gets into hard 22 questions and difficult issues, and Your Honor, it is simply 23 irresponsible for a group of lawyers to come into a case and 24 pretend that they are capable of doing something in less than 25 at time frame that they, in their best professional judgment, SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 25 1 believe is responsibly necessary to carry out the task, and 2 that is why we are asking for this time. 3 I heard plaintiffs' counsel a moment ago 4 acknowledge, Your Honor, that there are complicated issues 5 regarding the contempt requests that they have pending before 6 this court, and we are certainly not going to disagree with 7 that characterization. 8 Our goal, Your Honor, is to move as promptly as we 9 responsibly can consistent with our professional obligations 10 under the Rules of this court and the Rules of Professional 11 Conduct of the bar organizations to which we belong, and the 12 standards of the Department of Justice. 13 I heard everything that the plaintiffs' said. We 14 have reviewed, obviously, this court's order holding to 15 former cabinet officers, now former cabinet officers in 16 contempt, and I want to assure the court that we are viewing 17 all of these matters with the utmost possible gravity. 18 But it is that gravity, Your Honor, and it is the 19 need to ensure the accuracy and the completeness of what is 20 presented to this court that gives rise to that request for 21 additional time. 22 We have tried to calibrate that request, Your 23 Honor, as I said a moment ago, as carefully as we can, 24 consistent with what we believe to be the time responsibly 25 necessary to carry out our professional obligations and to SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 26 1 insure that the record before this court is as complete and 2 as accurate as the human mind can make it. 3 That is why Your Honor received from the United 4 States Attorney's Office yesterday our request to expand the 5 deadline for responding to the plaintiffs' motion filed 6 October -- I believe it was October 19th to December 19th. 7 THE COURT: All right. Anything else you want to 8 say? 9 MR. NAGLE: Only this, Your Honor. There are, as 10 the court obviously recognizes from the number of attorneys 11 that have appeared here this morning, there are issues of 12 coordination. 13 I do not say that to invoke some bureaucratic 14 talisman. I say it again, Your Honor, with a keen 15 recognition of the professional obligations that the lawyers 16 now coming into this case are going to have to meet. 17 We have tried to articulate today as clearly as we 18 can exactly what the role of the United States Attorney's 19 Office will be, and now the Civil Division of the Department 20 of Justice. 21 We have tried to articulate that with the brightest 22 lines we can as the case currently stands before us. As we 23 go forward, Your Honor, I would just ask the court to 24 recognize that the manner in which we are going to assure the 25 court of accountability and accuracy and completeness will SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 27 1 necessarily entail communication and coordination not only 2 among a fairly sizable number of persons presently in 3 government, and now no longer in government service, but also 4 among a sizeable number of attorneys. 5 It is our goal, Your Honor, and it is a part of the 6 reason for asking for additional time to insure that that 7 coordination gets the most accurate and complete possible 8 presentations before this court. 9 I don't have anything further unless you have 10 additional questions for us at this time. 11 THE COURT: Well, I take it you are not in the case 12 long enough to even begin to address why I was not told that 13 TAAMS was failing before I ruled in December of 1999 after 14 the testimony was that everything was on track, and then they 15 had a meeting over at the Department of the Interior and 16 actually had an agenda item, as my court monitor pointed out 17 to me for the first time. 18 I learned a few months ago they had an agenda item, 19 do we tell Judge Lamberth about this? And the Chief of Staff 20 to the Secretary decided no, we don't tell the Judge about 21 this. 22 The court monitor did not talk to Secretary 23 Babbitt, so he doesn't know whether Secretary Babbitt told 24 the Chief of Staff, no, don't tell Judge Lamberth about it. 25 But that fact alone is so contemptuous of this court that I SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 28 1 don't understand what it is that you think you are going to 2 do at this contempt trial? 3 The very idea that you have a meeting, you have an 4 agenda, you discuss, do we tell the court something? That 5 alone would be enough to tell any lawyer, yeah, you had 6 better tell the court. 7 And yet they decide that we won't let Judge 8 Lamberth know about this? We will let him issue his ruling, 9 and then they can see in all the subsequent reports that 10 TAAMS was consistently failing? 11 What facts do you need to be able to get to be able 12 to argue that? I think you had better throw yourself on the 13 mercy of the court and come down here and have your trial 14 rather than to try to make up new facts, hadn't you? 15 MR. NAGLE: There will be absolutely no making up 16 of facts in any respect, Your Honor, and I am not, as I think 17 the court's predicate to your question to me just now 18 anticipated, I am not standing here this morning on October 19 30th prepared to respond fully to all of the questions you 20 have. 21 But in making that statement, Your Honor, I want to 22 reassure the court that we recognize the gravity of what you 23 have said just now, and the gravity of the statements in the 24 special monitor reports, the court monitor reports, excuse 25 me, on that particular point. SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 29 1 I will just return to my theme and reiterate, Your 2 Honor, accuracy and completeness is our -- is our objective 3 and our obligation here, and that is why we are asking for 4 this time. 5 THE COURT: Well, let's take the second issue. 6 The court monitor reported to me that Secretary Babbitt 7 decided that he would just ignore my order and not do the 8 historical accounting. He would just pick out a statistical 9 sample. 10 He did this in a decision memo. He never told me 11 about it, but he did it, and then Secretary Norton comes in, 12 and the very first action she took touching this case was a 13 few days after the Court of Appeals affirmed me, she 14 reaffirmed Secretary Babbitt's decision to totally ignore my 15 order and not do the historical accounting, just do the 16 statistical sampling, in absolute violation of my order. 17 What is there left to try regarding Secretary 18 Norton? Her first faction was so clearly contemptuous, I 19 don't understand what it is that we are going to try. Do 20 you? 21 I mean the facts as admitted, since there is no 22 objection to those facts reported in the court monitor's 23 report, clearly show it, don't they? 24 MR. NAGLE: I believe, Your Honor, that the 25 question of the statistical sampling has to be for purposes SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 30 1 of the possible imposition of the sanction of contempt 2 against present or former government officials, has to be 3 assessed in light of what this court ruled and what the Court 4 of Appeals said, and I respectfully submit, Your Honor, that 5 when the question is contempt, as distinct from resolution of 6 merits phases of the case, the wording of this court's 7 orders, the articulation of this court's orders reiterated in 8 the Court of Appeals decision is a very important part of the 9 picture. 10 Before we get to a determination by this court that 11 contempt should be imposed, did this court's order, or the 12 Court of Appeals' opinion arising from this court's order, 13 clearly reject altogether any possibility of some sort of 14 statistical methodology? 15 Was that so clearly rejected in sufficiently 16 unambiguous and unequivocal terms, Your Honor, to warrant the 17 imposition of a contempt sanction for the actions and 18 statements of present and former Interior secretaries that 19 you have just referred to, and that is an issue, Your Honor, 20 that -- 21 THE COURT: It never dawned on them to come back 22 and ask the court? It never crossed their minds? 23 MR. NAGLE: I don't know that, Your Honor, this 24 morning. 25 THE COURT: That might go to whether or not they SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 31 1 are in contempt. I mean I am not ruling today whether they 2 are in contempt, but I think that there are really serious 3 questions presented here. When the court order on its face 4 said what it said, when you just look at what Secretary 5 Norton signed, I don't know how facially she is going to 6 explain that to me. 7 MR. NAGLE: We will endeavor, Your Honor, to 8 provide the accurate, complete response that I referred to in 9 my earlier remarks, and I will again reassure the court that 10 the gravety with which Your Honor views that question, and 11 the others framed by the plaintiffs' motions, is not under 12 estimated by anyone. 13 THE COURT: Why would Secretary Norton then send me 14 this latest report with all of the game playing that went on 15 with the latest report about the people at the Interior won't 16 certify it, so the Justice attorney takes an oral 17 certification from various sub-project managers, because 18 there is no project manager for trust reform, so they have to 19 go to all of the sub-project managers. 20 What was she doing? What was she thinking? I 21 don't understand it. Why would she allow that kind of a 22 report to be presented to the court on her behalf by a 23 Justice trial lawyer that allegedly calls all the sub-project 24 managers, and then the court monitor goes out and talks to 25 two of them and says they never even talked to the Justice SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 32 1 trial lawyers, so they couldn't have orally certified it? 2 What was the Secretary thinking? Did she think about it at 3 all? 4 MR. NAGLE: Those are the inquiries we are 5 undertaking to make, Your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MR. NAGLE: Thank you. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Kohn, do you want to speak on your 9 issues? 10 MR. KOHN: May it please the court, much of what I 11 have to say is similar to what Mr. Nagle had to say. We take 12 very seriously the responsibilities that we have as officers 13 of the court. 14 THE COURT: Well, the new team of lawyers always 15 takes it seriously. If you weren't the third team of lawyers 16 I might take you seriously. 17 MR. KOHN: Your Honor, we have a responsibility to 18 be accurate, and to be -- 19 THE COURT: I know. Every team of lawyers that has 20 come in here from Justice has told me that, and every team 21 has miserably failed so far. I hope you don't fall in that 22 category. 23 MR. KOHN: Well, Your Honor, without sufficient 24 time to do the inquiry into the difficult facts, the 25 difficult legal issues, and the history of this case, it SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 33 1 would be very difficult to fulfill that responsibility, and 2 that is precisely why we have asked for the enlargement of 3 time, to permit ourselves an opportunity to become 4 knowledgeable and to fulfill that opportunity. 5 In addition, with respect to the motion for the 6 appointment of a receivor, I think that there are very 7 difficult legal issues, separation of powers issues, as well 8 as factual issues, which we have not had an opportunity to 9 research and to investigagte, and that is why we have, 10 respectfully, requested an enlargement of time so that we can 11 go about that as promptly as we possibly can and respond to 12 the court responsibly. 13 THE COURT: All right, thank you Mr. Kohn. 14 MR. KOHN: Thank you, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Do any other individual non-parties 16 want to speak? 17 (No response.) 18 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Gingold. 19 MR. GINGOLD: When does the government want to go 20 to trial, Your Honor? Never? We heard in your chambers 21 government counsel telling you maybe in fifty years they 22 will be able to go to trial with regard to the failure to 23 issues. 24 We saw Mr. Kiefer's report, that date of clean-up, 25 which is; another one of the great lies that has been SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 34 1 perpitrated, that some areas might finish their clean-up in 2 forty years. Some areas might finish their clean-up in 3 twenty years. Some areas might finish in ten years. When 4 are they going to go or be ready to go to trial, Your 5 Honor? 6 This court pointed out quite clearly that they were 7 not going to delay trial on phase two issues. It was futile 8 to delay. 9 Your Honor, every bit of information that is 10 discsovered -- not easily discovered, Your Honor, 11 demonstrates that they have no reliable data base, that all 12 the information in their system cannot be attested to, that 13 no expert could testify based on that information. 14 Plaintiffs have been required to spend millions of dollars 15 preparing for this because we have been saying, and saying 16 the same thing. 17 They do not have reliable information. They have 18 been destroying the information. They have been corrupting 19 the information. Let's go forward and establish the account 20 balances. 21 Mr. Kiefer's report relative to the statistical 22 sampling charade is critical towards going forward. There is 23 no reason that there can't be a separate trial with regard to 24 contempt on that particular issue. We filed a separate 25 motion for that, Your Honor. That is clearly discrete. SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 35 1 Based on the reports of the special master and the 2 court monitor, Your Honor, our colleagues on this side of the 3 room can spend the rest of their lives trying to get truthful 4 information. 5 There is no evidence that they are ever going to 6 get it, and we think that enough, is enough, is enough, and 7 moveover, Your Honor, there are going to be more motions for 8 orders to show cause being filed, including with regard to 9 the Treasury Department, because paragraph nineteen still is 10 not satisfied. 11 Indeed, Your Honor, unless something is done with 12 regard to these issues in the immediate future, there is 13 another order that was violated with regard to Treasury's 14 propsal to present the information regarding its satisfaction 15 of paragraph nineteen where it recommended, and the court -- 16 or the special master accepted that discovery with regard to 17 plaintiffs would be limited to interrogatories, that we were 18 sgiven specific time periods within which to provide 19 interrogatories, within which they are to respond, and within 20 which we would file our opposition to the motion to purge 21 contempt. 22 Your Honor, in the period of time that was 23 established they have requested and we have consented to that 24 was set in an order. We provided the interrogatories, and 25 they didn't respond to the interrogatories. Not one answer SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 36 1 to an interrogatory, Your Honor. 2 Paragraph nineteen, the fact that the Treasury 3 Secretary and Interior Secretary have been in contempt of 4 that for years doesn't make any difference does it, Your 5 Honor? 6 Nobody is doing anything here. This has got to 7 stop. 8 Now we also went through -- by the way, we were 9 restricted with regard to our discovery, with regard to 10 paragraph nineteen. That was during the period of time that 11 there was in effect a stay on discovery. We agreed to that 12 limited basis. 13 Everybody knows in order to get a reasonable 14 response of interrogatories, which are frequently manipulated 15 -- the answers to which are frequently manipulated by 16 counsel, that they be prompt -- Your Honor, those 17 interrogatories were filed in July. They were supposed to be 18 responded to within two weeks. This is October 30th. There 19 is no response. 20 I might also say, Your Honor, we do have discrete 21 contempt issues. We believe contempt trials could go 22 forward. We believe the last one, the defendants, if they 23 want to take an extra week or two to respond. We believe the 24 others should be set and go forward immediately. 25 It was done very similarly with regard to the first SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 37 1 contempt trial, Your Honor. That trial was, I think, a 2 revelation to this court with sregard to the various 3 failures. And may I also say, Your Honor, we heard very 4 similar mea culpas from the Justice Department lawyers who 5 came in on that team. 6 We heard the same situation. We are not going to 7 do what our colleagues have done. This time we are going to 8 do it right. This time we are going to tell you the truth, 9 Your Honor. 10 With all due respect, Your Honor, plaintiffs do not 11 believe what the government has to say. We believe it is 12 critical that this court step in and do that as quickly as 13 possible. 14 We believe that the contempt trial that is 15 necessary with regard to setting phase two, which is the 16 January date which we requested, can also go through 17 discretely and handled properly. 18 And, Your Honor, to the extent that any extra time 19 is given to the defendants, plaintiffs would like to take 20 discovery. If they are going to make inquiries into the 21 state of mind of the Secretary of the Interior, or the 22 Assistant Secretary, or the former Secretary, plaintiffs 23 would like to take depositions supervised by the special 24 master. 25 To the extent that they want to delay, Your Honor, SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 38 1 plaintiffs should be entitled to take discovery. We are not 2 dealing with sordinary decisions here. We are not dealing 3 with a Secretary who is entitled to deference. 4 They have been stripped of their Chevron deference, 5 Your Honor, because this is a fiduciary matter. Therefore, 6 Your Honor, while we don't believe any extra time is 7 necessary, because you are going to get the same answers 8 whether or not they take two weeks, whether or not they take 9 another five and a half years. 10 If you give them another couple of weeks, or you 11 give them whatever time they are seeking for some of the 12 issues, Your Honor, plaintiffs would seek to take 13 depositions, depositions including the Secretary and her 14 lawyers. 15 So therefore we urge you to deny their requests for 16 enlargement of time. 17 Your Honor, we still haven't received their motion. 18 We got a call this morning from the secretary for Mr. Harris, 19 that they would fax it to us this morning, and when we left 20 our offices we still have not received it, so we haven't even 21 seen their motion yet, Your Honor. 22 This is not the first time plaintiffs don't receive 23 service. This is not the first time plaintiffs don't get 24 what is represented. This is not a good way to start, Your 25 Honor, when they are argueing a motion for enlargement that SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 39 1 has never even been served on plaintiffs. 2 But nevertheless, this is business as usual. We 3 implore this court to take every action necessary to insure 4 that the trust responsibilities owed by the United States to 5 individual Indian trust beneficiaries are discharged, that a 6 receiver be appointed, that the special master's powers be 7 reinforced so instruction by individuals such as Mr. Rothman 8 doesn't continue. 9 Mr. Rothman, if you recall, came in here when Joe 10 Christi was ridden out of town on a rail because he told this 11 court the truth, that documents weren't being produced under 12 instructions from counsel. 13 Now Mr. Rothman has been in place for over two 14 yeras. Documents haven't been produced, and documents 15 haven't been preserved. 16 Where are we? We are nowhere, Your Honor, and it 17 is time to take action. Thank you very much. 18 MR. NAGLE: Your Honor, may I be heard? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. NAGLE: Just very briefly on two very discrete 21 points raised by the last remarks of plaintiffs' counsel. 22 Thank you, Your Honor. 23 My colleague, Mr. Harris, informs me that he did 24 attempt, and perhaps there was some transmission problem to 25 facsimile transmit our motion for enlargement to plaintiffs' SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 40 1 counsel. Obviously, we will get a copy in his hands as soon 2 as that is technilogically feasible today. 3 With respect to the suggestion on taking discsovery 4 associated with the contempt issues, Your Honor, we would 5 respectfully submit that the most orderly and efficient way 6 to proceed would be to permit us to file the responses to 7 plaintiffs' motions for show cause orders, and obviously give 8 the plaintiffs an opportunity to reply to those. 9 We would submit that the filing of our response and 10 their reply will sharpen the issues for the court, and on 11 that basis their request for discovery could then be 12 considered. 13 Then if there is a need for discovery, the contours 14 of that discovery, and the person or persons from whom that 15 discovery would be obtained, could best be assessed at that 16 point. 17 That is all I have, Your Honor. Thank you. 18 THE COURT: Well, I probably agree with that 19 notion, because I think just authorizing discovey now would 20 just create an objection to virtually every question asked. 21 So it doesn't advance the ball very much. 22 The defendants' motion to enlarge time is granted 23 in part and denied in part. It is granted until November 24 15th, and denied in all other respects. 25 I will look at any reply filed shortly tehreafter. SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 41 1 I would think counsel should keep the date of December the 2 1st available for further proceedings herein, which I will 3 specify after I get the response of the government, and I 4 will specify what those other procedures will be. 5 We may start at least if I review and decide on the 6 Enfeld matter before that day, and maybe one of the others 7 that is already ripe before that day, but I think we can get 8 the proceedings started on December 1st. 9 MR. NAGLE: Your Honor, there is one other matter. 10 MR. GINGOLD: One question. December 1st is the 11 weekend. 12 THE COURT: Oh, all right. I thought it was a 13 Friday. 14 MR. GINGOLD: We would be willing to do it on 15 Saturday. 16 THE COURT: I understand. I understand. I would 17 have in mind then November 30th. 18 Go ahead, Mr. Nagle. 19 MR. NAGLE: Thank you, Your Honor. 20 It is purely a scheduling matter. You have granted 21 our motion to November 15th. Our predecessors had requested 22 an extension of time to November 10th in connection with the 23 motion filed by the plaintiffs in August of 2001. 24 For the sake of streamlining the briefing process, 25 Your Honor, if the two responses could be submitted to the SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 42 1 court, and we will hand serve plaintiffs on the 15th, I think 2 that that would certainly make things more efficient from our 3 side and move this process forward more quickly. 4 THE COURT: That is only as to the August motion. 5 MR. NAGLE: There was a motion -- a motion for 6 extension of time previously submitted in connection -- 7 THE COURT: Which I never granted. 8 MR. NAGLE: I beg your pardon, Your Honor? 9 THE COURT: Which I never granted. 10 MR. NAGLE: Well, that is correct, Your Honor. We 11 could not discern a ruling in the record. 12 THE COURT: Right. 13 MR. NAGLE: If that could likewise be made -- 14 THE COURT: Well, if I had time to have this 15 status, if I hadn't been pulled off by the FISA court, it 16 would have been denied, but in light of my own time problems 17 I will grant it until August 15th -- I mean until November 18 15th as well. 19 MR. NAGLE: Thank you very much, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right, anyone else have anything 21 else you want to say today? 22 (No response.) 23 THE COURT: I will schedule further proceedings 24 after I see what the government files on November 15th. I 25 hope the government in that filing will tell me who is in SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 43 1 charge of trust reform for the government, because it is sure 2 not obvious to me that anybody is in charge. If it is 3 allegedly the Secretary, she sure doesn't act like it. 4 (Whereupon, the proceedings in the above-styled matter 5 were adjourned.) 6 - - - - - 7 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 8 I hereby certify that the foregoing is a correct 9 transcript in the proceedings in the above-styled matter. 10 11 _____________________________ 12 SUSAN PAGE TYNER, CVR-CM 13 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SUSAN PAGE TYNER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER